I remain doubting malaise

[malaise]

BOMBSHELL CLAIM: TRUMP DID NOT WIN 2024, ELECTION MANIPULATED

David Pakman Show

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1,019,100 views 17 hours ago The David Pakman Show
-- Nathan Taylor, Executive Director of Public Engagement for Election Truth Alliance, joins us to discuss discrepancies in the 2024 election and how to bolster election integrity

[gab13by13]

1. Kamala won

Too many anomalies malaise,

Why did Krasnov get election day surges in votes in only the swing states and not in any other states? Why didn't Kamala flip one red district to blue? Unheard of.

You are going to be hit with the machines aren't connected to the internet in 3..2..1..

[barbtries]

9. In NC,

Democrats won all or most of the down races. yet krasnov won his. I don't believe it.

[ms liberty]

19. This. Many of us here don't, and I'm one too.

The only people I know who believe krasnov won are the ones who voted for him.

[Mr.Bee]

35. Two Months Between Election and Inauguration

Should be used for recounts and investigation.
I believe this expectation of instant, overnight election results hurts our country,
and when statisticians discover anomalies it is too late and no one believes it.

[yellow dahlia]

110. Paper ballot hand recounts were necessary.

Why weren't any done?

I ask the question every day as I watch the destruction and mayhem.

[58Sunliner]

156. I kept screaming for recounts on social media and to the dem leadership.

[yellow dahlia]

158. Yup. I was jumping up and down...

figuratively and literally.

[MichMan]

160. No one wanted to pay the hundreds of millions they would have cost n/t

[yellow dahlia]

161. Unfortunate, given the costs to this country right now.

We are watching billions of dollars being stolen every day.

We are watching billions of dollars of infrastructure and bureaucratic history being dismantled every day.

We watched USAID be smashed into oblivion - a waste of billions in dollars and millions in lives.

In November of 2024, I offered to contribute to a recount effort - I am sure others were willing to contribute as well.

A tragedy and a travesty.

Kamala Harris deserved to have those millions at her back.

[Kid Berwyn]

87. Same in Michigan.

Nobody admitted voting for the guy when asked in a high-end restaurant in Macomb County in February, including the server and the owner. Nobody. And that was a room with at least 30 people.

[llmart]

146. Same with Oakland County.

Though I live in Macomb I am mostly in Oakland County and I heard the same thing.

[yellow dahlia]

109. Not Believable.

[EdmondDantes_]

14. When 90 percent of districts moved right, it's not a surprise Harris didn't flip any

They assert but don't demonstrate the surge claims. But even if they did, shocking that it would be in the states most targeted. But we also know Republicans are more likely to vote on election day. The same way they did in 2020.

The evidence is ephemeral and dissipates on any scrutiny.

[angryxyouth]

55. This interview did not give enough time

If you go to the election truth alliance YouTube channel, there is an interview on the Titus podcast which dives deeper into the statistics with multiple Charts and graphs and there are charts and graphs for all of the data analysis you can think of and shown in different types of graphs. For example the under performance chart. I would suggest watching one of the other podcasts and I believe his assertions are pretty much undeniable.

[EdmondDantes_]

58. I've gone to their website. It's not even remotely evidence

Let's take their "evidence" for North Carolina.

https://electiontruthalliance.org/analysis/north-carolina/

Their first point is down ticket races where Democrats performed relatively better than Harris. Apparently split ticket voting with the most polarizing candidate in history isn't a thing.

Then there's the claim that there are differences between early voting and election day voting. Sure they have graphs, but they don't explain how they came to their conclusions. Why did they pick a random country in Minnesota as their proof? And when hypothesis 1 that more Republican voters show up on election day compared to Democrats, well we know that's true. See all the red mirage talk in explaining why Trump was lying about the 2020 election. Discounting the truth to reach your conclusion isn't intellectually honest.

Their third point is that RFK Jr was ordered removed from the ballot, but they don't explain how that would impact the vote.

They finish with a call for an audit, but didn't review the audit results from North Carolina.

https://www.ncsbe.gov/about-elections/election-security/post-election-procedures-and-audits

How is any of that convincing evidence?

[Chemical Bill]

133. They don't claim to have the evidence.

Would you take anything less than hand counted paper ballot recounts as proof of election fraud? I bet no, and that makes two of us.

Look at 2004. What was it, 16 states with official results outside of the exit poll margin of error, 15 of those favoring Bush, 14 of those flipping the state from Kerry to Bush? This didn't prove election fraud, but it sure suggested that hand counted paper ballot recounts would be a good idea.

[EdmondDantes_]

166. The election truth alliance sure spends a lot of time arguing that they have evidence

And there's plenty I accept as evidence that the election wasn't stolen. For example all the protections in place including audits. That the election matched polls. That the Democratic elected officials who would have to be complicit or idiots that aren't crying election fraud.

[intrepidity]

128. What I would like to see are a bunch of controls

Before I embark on a deep dive, and since you have already seen more of the data, do they show eg these heat maps for other random precincts?

If the raw data is readily available, it is trivial to generate these maps.

[Fiendish Thingy]

15. Election denialism doesn't serve our cause

It only interferes with the grieving of the loss and facing the challenges in the current reality.

[Maraya1969]

31. Unless we figure out a way to stop it. I'm sure that is where they are going next

Musk being involved in that election always seemed suspect to me.

[Fiendish Thingy]

67. How can you stop something that isn't happening? Nt

[yellow dahlia]

112. So sus!

I'm not a teenager, but I do like this new slang.

[Chemical Bill]

135. Election fraud denialism hasn't served our cause these past 25 years.

Ask President Gore.

[Fiendish Thingy]

147. 2000 wasn't an election fraud issue

It was 1) an election administration issue (hanging chads aren’t an evil conspiracy) and 2) a strategic error by Gore that gave SCOTUS the “equal protection” excuse they were looking for to hand the election to Bush.

[Chemical Bill]

162. Well...

1) Let's not split hairs, ok? It was cheating. The media recount showed Gore winning every statewide recount scenario.
2) Yes. If only Gore had insisted on a statewide hand counted recount.

Of course, this has no bearing on the 54,000 mostly poor/minority people who were purged from voter rolls in Florida in 2000, against a court order, by Katherine Harris, the SoS under Jeb Bush. That made a difference too.

[Fiendish Thingy]

163. Words have meaning

Election fraud - manipulating/flipping votes/vote tallies, is a very different act from voter suppression, or litigation after the fact to use the courts to obtain a specific outcome.

All are wrong and evil, but are distinct acts, not “splitting hairs”.

What is being alleged in these CT’s is specific, deliberate alteration of votes/vote tallies.

And there is no evidence that happened.

[Chemical Bill]

164. The recounts in 2016 showed...

oh, right, there were no recounts completed, hence no evidence. You got me there, if no recounts are done, there is only circumstantial evidence, which is too easily ignored. You present a fascinating premise.

BTW, have you read The Conyers Report? Republican cheating is multifaceted. I could be convinced it didn't include election fraud, but just saying there is no evidence isn't doing it for me.

[MichMan]

168. Jill Stein paid for recounts in a few states

Some of it was from donations by DU members. None showed anything of any substance

[Chemical Bill]

177. I agree...

The recounts paid for by Green Party donations in 2016 were not full hand counted paper ballot recounts, and we're not even completed in two of the three states, and like I said, no recounts give no evidence.

[Fiendish Thingy]

171. Typically Recounts aren't done unless the margin is

And recounts have to be requested by a candidate, and in many cases paid for by them.

Not sure what you’re alleging about 2016.

While chicanery and malfeasance abound in US elections in the form of voter suppression and disenfranchisement, there is zero verifiable evidence of actual fraud (altering votes or vote totals).

As Rudy said “we don’t have evidence, but we have theories”.

And now he’s been disbarred, along with Sidney Powell, John Eastman and many other lawyers who were stupid enough to jump in the “stop the steal” bandwagon.

Which is why no lawyer representing the Dems went before a judge to present their “theories” about 2024 fraud- because there wasn’t any, and they didn’t want to be disbarred.

[Chemical Bill]

178. I'm sorry you didn't follow the 2016 election.

2016 United States presidential election recounts - Wikipedia https://share.google/Q11qXUqiKbavHrdo4

The issues were given cursory coverage in the press of the time. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary.

As we seem to agree, no hand counted paper ballot recounts means no evidence of election fraud (except circumstantial evidence, which has been present in all Republican victories in our present century.)

[Fiendish Thingy]

181. I followed the election and the aftermath

No evidence of fraud was uncovered.

Hillary lost.

[questionseverything]

173. Actually what is being shown is the reported totals don't seem to be accurate

Wether votes are being purposefully manipulated or the machines simply don’t work the results appear to incorrect

And illegal voter suppression would certainly be election fraud

[AllaN01Bear]

29. ding. the election was stolen

[yellow dahlia]

108. Yup!

[Polybius]

130. He overperformed nearly everywhere

Not just Swing States.

[Fiendish Thingy]

182. Overperformance by an opponent should be expected

When 90 million voters stay home.

[hlthe2b]

2. I wake up every morning and the things about which I have certainty continue to diminish....

I don't tend to buy into conspiracy theory, but on this, I can have no certainty, that's for sure.

[SocialDemocrat61]

3. Pakman is not credible

None of the YouTube warriors are.

[EdmondDantes_]

10. If you go to their website, the "evidence" is non-existent

It ignores split ticket voting, it compares unlike districts, and so on.

[bucolic_frolic]

4. Trump administration is manipulating employment and autism statistics

[barbtries]

8. manipulating?

magats and krasnov just pull numbers out of their collective ass. 300 million dead from overdoses. highest ratings in the history of creation. Inflation going down, jobs are up, tariffs are the best thing this FUCK ever did.

i'm still outraged that stephen miller, in the Oval Office, told a bald faced lie that an 0-9 decision that was in fact, a loss for the abomination administration was a 9-0 win. He said this directly to the president in the presence of the "press" (apparently they only allow "press" that is not concerned with reporting facts), on camera, on the record. Bald faced lie with no push back whatsoever, making sure that krasnov's cult and possibly even krasnov himself believe the lie.

They're like miles and years ahead of manipulation. The full time job of everyone in this abomination administration is Propaganda. Full stop.

[Wiz Imp]

142. Trump pulling numbers out of his ass is not data manipulation.

He constantly says nonsense numbers, but the actual official data released by the government does not reflect those nonsense numbers. So far, there is no evidence any "official" data has been manipulated. There has been data that they have declined to release presumably because the numbers would reflect very poorly on Trump.

[Wiz Imp]

140. Please stop it. They have not manipulated employment data.

And I'm not aware of them even releasing any autism statistics. Trump made his Tylenol announcement without any science or data to back it up. He didn't quote any numbers, just said it was bad. No data manipulation needed.

[bucolic_frolic]

143. He fired the statistician because he didn't like the numbers. So you please open your eyes. /nt

[Wiz Imp]

157. Don't even go there. You're way out of your league.

I have written more than a hundred posts on here over the past couple months explaining my background (professional government statistician who worked on the BLS employment programs at the state level) and why it is 100% clear that BLS data is NOT being manipulated to this point in time. I'm not going to repeat everything because it's clear you're someone who will never listen . Suffice to say, the statisticians at BLS who produce that data are career civil servants (I personally know many of them) and to a person, not a single one will ever manipulate data for political purposes. They will resign first.

It should be obvious to even the most skeptical person that if they were manipulating the data, then we wouldn't have had a month where the US lost jobs and the recent gains would be far above the approximately 20,000 that they have been. Why would you believe they are manipulating the jobs data when they have been absolute garbage?

I guarantee if/when they try to release manipulated data, it will be obvious and numerous whistleblowers will go to the media about it.

How DARE you tell me to open my eyes. You're the one that needs to open your eyes. I know what I am talking about. You don't.

Go ahead and believe what you want. I know the truth. THEY ARE NOT MANIPULATING THE DATA!

[barbtries]

5. me too Malaise.

I think Kamala won. Al Gore won. John Kerry won.

republicans believe that the ends justify the means. winning is everything, and it's all a zero sum game.

[gab13by13]

13. I mean it's not like they didn't steal elections before.

We even had the computer programmer admit he wrote the program to send votes from Ohio to a wareshed in Tennessee where the votes were flipped from Kerry to Shrub. The programmer was flying to DC to testify when his small plane crashed and yet people like us are called conspiracy nuts.

No wonder Republicans cheat, not enough people believe they cheat even when it's obvious.

W's freaking brother stopped the recount in Florida that would have given the election to Gore in order to allow the SC to pick the president.

I repeat, there were vote surges on election day for Krasnov, only in the swing states and in no other states. The surges were out of place to word it plainly for people to understand.

[barbtries]

17. thank you for remembering, especially Ohio

and the plane crash. not the first plane crash.

yeah, we shouldn't be conspiracy theorists. however Hillary was right about just about everything and definitely the vast right wing conspiracy. they've played the long game and as of this minute, it looks like they won.

fortunately time keeps on passing. I don't know if it will be in my lifetime, but I know they will fall eventually and democracy will be restored.

[yellow dahlia]

114. Right

...and the plane crash.

[Clouds Passing]

24. And Humphrey would have won had nixon not committed treason.

[barbtries]

32. I don't know this story,

but you reminded me of how reagan arranged to keep the hostages in Iran until after the election.

[Clouds Passing]

96. Thom Hartmann tells the story about how Nixon went to the Vietnamese and asking them

to stop negotiating with Johnson to stop the war. Nixon would have a much better deal for them if they waited until after he was elected. The Gop have been treasoners for a long time.

[Clouds Passing]

98. Thom Hartmann tells the story. The Nixon people negotiated with the Vietnamese to continue the war

until after he was elected. They would give them a much better deal than the one that Johnson had already negotiated with the Vietnamese.

The gop has been treasoners for a long time

[Bluepinky]

30. The party of "family values" is devoid of values.

[Mr.Bee]

37. I think Kamala won. Al Gore won. John Kerry won.

And every one that was stolen brought war or crashed the economy.

[barbtries]

40. yep.

Dems shoulda fought harder.

it's like this shutdown shit. if there is a shutdown the republicans own it yet the old dyed in the wool decades in congress Democrats seem to think it would be preferable to capitulate for fear of having it be blamed on them.

Fear informs way too much of the thinking of these Democrats imo. Figure out what you stand for and fight for it and, especially now, never capitulate to republicans, never assume or even pretend that they act in good faith (they never do), and take it all the way. At least then if you lose, you know you did your damnedest.

ETA with this last election, the damage being done is so cataclysmic and catastrophic it defies imagination.

[Mr.Bee]

48. legitimately elected president

As Thom Hartmann said, "There has not been a Republican legitimately elected president since Dwight Eisenhower."

[yellow dahlia]

115. Absolutely -so cataclysmic and catastrophic.

So painful to watch.

[Chemical Bill]

138. Don't forget Hillary.

Remember how Republicans fought tooth and nail to prevent hand counted paper ballot recounts in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania? They were successful.

[yellow dahlia]

113. Yup!

[malthaussen]

6. "Bombshell" my ass. "Clickbait," more like.

Yeah, yeah, Kamala won, the election was stolen, blah, blah. Funny, the GOP made the same claims in 2020. I reckon every election we have in the future (if there are any) will be disputed by the loser. And do you know how many times this particular "bombshell" has been bruited about the 'Net since the polls closed? More like a wet firecracker.

Stipulate it's true, so what? Who's gonna pull the present Boss out of the WH and install the "rightful" winner? There's nobody to bell that particular cat, so it is meaningless.

-- Mal

[gab13by13]

18. Comparing 2020 to 2024 is meaningless.

[tritsofme]

72. Nope, it's the same ridiculous conspiracy theories, just different mouths moving.

No different than Trump 2020 election deniers.

[yellow dahlia]

116. Agree

[Polybius]

131. You're never gonna give this one up, are ya?

[Chemical Bill]

139. In 2020, there were hand counted paper ballot recounts.

That's a big difference from 2024.

[Botany]

7. Kamala won. Musk, Peter Theil, Palantir, Eaton, and others were into the vote data.

Last edited Wed Sep 24, 2025, 06:24 PM - Edit history (1)

And Harris’ undervote has been explained as “she just didn’t get the voter turn out” but
in reality the other side cheated and Theil/Palantir were running “digital janitor” that hid
the deleted and switched votes.

https://thiswillhold.substack.com/p/she-won-they-didnt-just-change-the

[IbogaProject]

46. I heard the tabulators used cellular uplinks

And SpaceX went live with satalite cell capabilities just before the election. And either way, Tangerine Ceaser didn't win in a "Landslide" he didn't even get 50%. It angers me that simple lies never get corrected with Taco.

[Botany]

61. Musk had 265 low earth orbit satellites turned on on October, 30 2024 that gave him and his crews

D.T.C. (Direct To Cell Starlink)* with firmware patches that were put onto both
E.S.& S. and dominion voting systems central tabulators and operating systems.
This allowed for monitoring and manipulation of the data with out anybody noticing.


*
https://www.starlink.com/us/business/direct-to-cell?srsltid=AfmBOoqDuUskzdd1br1yX0s209WRRUgVe-gnU4Igq1McrRept_UBvCO1

[yellow dahlia]

119. They even bragged about it.

And if we don't recognize their objective and try and stop it, we are handing the election to them...and their trickery.

[yellow dahlia]

118. This!

[yellow dahlia]

117. Absofuckinglutely!

[slightlv]

11. I just wat to say one word: Duh!

[Fiendish Thingy]

12. Easily refuted clickbait nonsense

Yesterday’s Atlantic:

The people who are still convinced Kamala won.

https://apple.news/AJFb2dghVTXWC1X3bIepozQ

One popular example alleges that an NSA audit of the 2024 election found that Harris, not Trump, had actually won, according to a former CIA officer who allegedly participated in the audit. On July 31, an anonymous Substack newsletter called This Will Hold, which claims to offer “the truth they’re not telling you,” published a post stating, “In an exclusive interview, former CIA operative Adam Zarnowski laid out pieces of an intricate network of bad actors and covert operations behind transnational organized crime and the stolen 2024 election.” It adds that “none of his revelations are classified” and that Zarnowski “is prepared to testify under oath.” The implication of this bombshell is clear to the author: “We have the authority and the obligation to remove this entire unelected, illegitimate regime.”

The theory has many problems. No evidence exists for Zarnowski’s claims about his background other than his own word. Elsewhere, a LinkedIn profile calls him a “former CIA paramilitary operations officer” and an expert in the subject of human trafficking, but nothing suggests his statistical or elections expertise; a self-published book is full of oddball claims. I attempted to reach Zarnowski using a couple of different methods but received no response. (Snopes, which was able to contact Zarnowski, reported that he did not provide definitive proof of his professional background or the alleged audit.)

Moreover, nothing in the Substack post actually supports Zarnowski’s claims; instead, it offers innuendo about voting-machine failures and the companies that sell elections equipment. Neither the NSA nor any other federal agency conducts elections audits, nor is there any plausible explanation for why they would do so. The absence of an actual audit here or anywhere else is notable: As with the claims offered by Trump and his allies in 2020 and 2021, the theory relies on implication, with hard evidence seemingly always just out of reach.

But there are more fundamental issues of logic in the theory. States actually do conduct audits of their votes, and unlike the supposed NSA audit, the process and results of those reviews are public. The theory appears to suppose that Democratic officials in key swing states conspired to help Trump and hurt Harris, for whatever unstated reason. These claims “ring as hollow and grifting as nearly identical claims made by those who profited off the Big Lie that Trump didn’t lose the 2020 election,” David Becker, the executive director of the Center for Election Innovation & Research, a nonpartisan nonprofit, wrote in an email.

Much more at link, or go to the Atlantic site.

[gab13by13]

16. A forensic audit was never done,

[Fiendish Thingy]

22. There's no such thing

There was no such thing in 2020, and there’s no such thing now.

“Forensic audits” are a made up concept to sow doubt because no state performs them, so the illogical conclusion is, there must be chicanery afoot.

All states audit their elections. To believe in 2024 elections fraud, you have to believe the Dem secs of state in multiple swing states are dishonest.

More from the Atlantic:

The problem with any claims of election fraud on a scale that could change results, setting aside the statistical flaws, is that they ask audiences to accept abstract interpretations of numerical data while ignoring real-world information. For example, almost every state allows election observers and has poll workers from multiple parties. To change votes would require that multiple people across parties conspire to flip votes and then stay quiet about it—and also that no voters or observers notice. “That seems pretty far-fetched to me,” Tammy Patrick, the chief program officer at the Election Center and a veteran elections official, told me.

Knocking down false claims is frustrating work, especially when the same ideas that were debunked four years ago pop up again from new culprits. Grimmer has spent countless hours chasing down the truth, explaining it to reporters, and even debating election deniers. And so I was struck by the compassion he showed for people who fall for the theories. “The people who believe them, they’re not crazy people,” he told me.

“It’s hard to believe that a majority of the country disagrees with your choice when you’re so passionate and certain about your choice,” Grimmer said. “They’re smart people, and they think, I must be able to discover what’s going on here.” Sometimes, though, reality just doesn’t work the way we expect.

Yeah, yeah, Palintir blah, blah, blah.

Harris lost.

Election denialism weakens our ability to resist the current regime and fight for the future because so many are Quixotically tilting at windmills that they think are dragons.

[questionseverything]

84. You don't listen to the material and you present an article that uses a " theory " that is clearly explained away

I’m talking about you pretending that many people would need to be involved, it’s not true and the video explains why

[Fiendish Thingy]

89. Blah, blah, blah

90 million people didn’t vote who could’ve.

That’s the only number you need to know.

Harris lost.

I’m a denialism denier, stuck firmly in the reality based community.

[questionseverything]

91. So you are admitting you have not read or listened to any of the material presented

I believe it was stalin who said, “who votes doesn’t matter, it’s who counts the votes “

[Fiendish Thingy]

94. I have been exposed to every evidence-free, cockamamie 2024 election-denying conspiracy theory out there

I reject them all as not being based in reality.

[Wiz Imp]

145. I heard they stole it using Jewish Space Lasers! 🤣🙄

I was just thinking there hadn't been a big "Trump stole the election" thread here in a long time.

Thanks for the link! I hadn't seen that, but I had read that Substack and it was blatantly obvious to me it was total nonsense. As a professional statistician myself, I can say unequivocally that the author of that Substack does not have a clue about real statistics.

[Fiendish Thingy]

148. From one member of the reality based community to another...

I thank you.

[llmart]

20. I am right there with you, malaise.

I even have doubts he won his first go-round.

[yellow dahlia]

121. Agree.

Things looked "hinky" on election night 2016, as well. The way the numbers veered in the other direction for PA, MI, WI. It didn't "math" for me then, and still doesn't.

[RVN VET71]

21. It's hard for me to believe that Trump's army of marching morons totaled 77,000,000 Americans

Hard but, sadly, not impossible.

If the 2024 vote was, in fact, manipulated, it will be interesting historically. But, in either case, there is nothing that can be done about it now. The troops are already preparing to invade American cities. Trump's brain trust: chiefly Miller but many mediocre others (Bondi, Carr, Hegseth, Patel, for example, but also SCOTUS' fascist leaning "conservatives", led by Roberts), are strategizing how to keep and broaden power by destroying and/or co-opting the remaining legal avenues of protest and law enforcement.

We are, in my opinion, fucked.

I will vote. Of course I will. But I feel that my vote is not going to matter much because the Fascist GOP has plans for their candidates in the next national election to cruise through to victory, winning Putinesque percentages of the vote.

All that's left for us (sans bloodshed) is to shut up and wait for the sound of the jackboot on the stairs or to write strongly worded letters from Yellow Knife, Canada.

[Mr.Bee]

23. I wrote about it in February

We Must demand a Recount of All cast Votes
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220048042
This post was removed for breaking the following rule: No kooky, extremist, or hate content.

[MichMan]

27. And it was removed, wasn't it?

[tritsofme]

73. Sounds like the jury made a wise decision.

[Mr.Bee]

180. That's Right!

We Must Never, Ever demand a Recount - No Matter How Fishy!
If someone says they won in a landslide, has a mandate, won all the popular vote
YOU MUST BELIEVE!

[AverageOldGuy]

25. How about

We knock off this “Trump lost in 2034” bullshit and get busy winning 2026 and 2028

[Mr.Bee]

38. 2034

Deep dystopian look into the future...
I don't think we can wait til 2034 for him to lose...

[rubbersole]

51. My concern is there won't be an election in 2026.

Or ever again. Never a legitimate one anyway.

[Kid Berwyn]

26. Me too.

No way could a depraved, insane, imbecilic traitor win fair-and-square.

[karin_sj]

28. Agree

I've felt this from day one and so have many people I've talked to.

[KS Toronado]

33. The real question we need to be asking ourselves

if the votes in the last election were manipulated, what are we going to do to ensure they can't
duplicate their shenanigans in the midterms? If we don't take the House & Senate back in the
midterms I'm afraid Fascism is here to stay.

[malaise]

42. THIS

Very important

[KS Toronado]

43. Let me help you out Malaise.....

[bluestarone]

60. YES. fully agree. I and i feel ALL others here cannot prove 100% if the election WAS or WAS NOT stolen.

Everyone of us have our opinions, and our opinions ONLY. Now in 2026, and 2028 we will have (i hope we will) possibly the most important elections our great country will ever have. Now wouldn't it be nice to KNOW for sure if there was shenanigans that took place with that last election? For Gods sake in the states we have the MOST control, i don't care how but maybe a go fund me for the costs. Find out who would support these recounts!! I think there are very few of us that 100% trusts how honest that election was. There, i said my piece. Adding here, i'm not thinking of undoing what ALREADY is, but with THIS supreme court, we HAVE to find out for sure, then proceed with ALL eyes forward!!

[KS Toronado]

62. I have often wondered why someone in our party

and I'm talking higher ups with resources to do some surveys in these swing states were polls
showed we should win but didn't.

Pick out a couple counties and do a house by house canvas or send all voters a prepaid postcard
asking who they voted for.

It would not be that expensive to do and if we found BIG discrepancies that would open up all
kinds of doors for our side.

Or have there been surveys done already that I'm aware of ?????

[EdmondDantes_]

65. What polls are you talking about?

The average of polls showed a tied race and that's basically what we got.

https://www.vox.com/2024-elections/382161/harris-trump-final-polls-2024-who-will-win

https://preview.realclearpolling.com/elections/president/2024

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/04/presidential-election-polls-2024-harris-trump/76041022007/

[KS Toronado]

68. Prior to the election there were plenty of pools showing us winning

posted right here on DU.

[EdmondDantes_]

69. That's not an answer

I posted multiple poll averages that disputes your claim. An individual poll cherry picked because it said what someone wanted to believe isn't as credible as more.

[KS Toronado]

74. Why are you attacking me?

Where did I supply a "An individual poll cherry picked" by me you seem to be upset about?

I clicked on one of your links and it showed Democrats leading in polls but we were losing ground
getting close to the election.

YOU WANT PROOF? GO READ THE ARTICLES YOU SUPPLIED!

ARE YOU THE INFAMOUS POLL-BOY ? Have a nice day, I'll not respond again.

[EdmondDantes_]

85. Nothing I have said is even remotely an attack

Presenting evidence is a pretty important part of a discussion. The links I provided showed polls were well within the margin of error and we're behind in many of the swing states. You're entitled to express whatever opinions you like, including calling me names as you did, but the reality is, the narrative you created isn't correct. Not sure why that inspired an all caps post.

[RoseTrellis]

179. human nature

it's human nature to share good news, and selectively ignore unfavorable news.
We all know that every poll that showed us in the lead was trumpeted, and the few that did get posted that showed tRump in the lead were dismissed.

[tritsofme]

75. Because this entire election denial narrative is garbage?

Why would any “higher up” in the party waste money chasing ridiculous conspiracy theories that they already know are nonsense?

[questionseverything]

90. Transparency in elections is not nonsense ...Geesh

[tritsofme]

99. No, but these delusional conspiracy theories sure are.

Not to mention they are a vicious attack on the character of Kamala Harris.

[questionseverything]

106. Ms Harris is not a computer scientist or programmer so how could this be on her?

[questionseverything]

83. All we need to do is handcount the precincts that are suspicious in Pennsylvania

The idea that “ we the people “ can’t hand count the votes is ridiculous, what are they hiding?

[bluestarone]

100. Been doing ouside duties here. I've heard of NO surveys being done.

I understand Marc Elias has made statements that no way was there election cheating took place. He is one of our best and smartest lawyers. That's why i do believe what he's saying. I, being very dependent on their thoughts think he's correct, BUT i cannot help mixed feelings at times. TSF CHEATS at everything, and i mean everything, so he's NOT beyond screwing us all. The reason i posted my thread is because i wish we were 100% sure of no problems in 2026 and 28. I know people here don't like stolen election talk, but that's how i feel.

[questionseverything]

105. Elias is a lawyer not a computer programmer

[MichMan]

107. Hasn't he watched all the same videos that claim to prove it was stolen?

[yellow dahlia]

126. Right.

[bluestarone]

137. I do understand that.

I just wish so much we could just do two Recounts in two of our most trusted states. I'm not even thinking of changing results. I just want to prove, one way or another, for our own information.

[yellow dahlia]

124. I wonder if Marc Elias was advised to stay away from any form of

questioning the election or requesting recounts.

How can a request for paper ballot hand recounts be questioned?

BUT! There was a strong message to NOT be election deniers.

And that after all the recounts in 2020? Come on!

[Wiz Imp]

149. So you're questioning the integrity of Marc Elias?

NOBODY has done more to protect democracy and election integrity than Marc Elias. I can assure you, nobody "advised" Marc Elias to do anything. Elias has said the idea that Trump only won the election because he cheated is nonsense because as the foremost elections lawyer in the US, he KNOWS it's nonsense.

[yellow dahlia]

152. I LOVE Marc Elias.

But if he was warned (and convinced) by the consultant class to stay away from questioning election results, I don't know how he would react. Do you?

And as others have said on this thread - he is not a computer programmer.

I have never had a reasonable and logical explanation for why the Harris campaign did not request paper ballot hand recounts. Ultimately it was up to them. I have always suspected the consultant class discouraged it for a variety of reasons.

Interestingly, another DUer posited one of my theories, in this thread.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=20671972

[Wiz Imp]

155. If you think Marc Elias would listen to the consultants, you're absolutely questioning

his integrity. That's very insulting.

[yellow dahlia]

159. If you know him, and apparently you profess to,

please tell him I apologize if I insulted him.

[tritsofme]

165. Now these delusional conspiracy theories make people like Marc Elias complicit in covering up a stolen election?

Good lord this is sad.

[yellow dahlia]

167. Are you accusing me of asserting that Marc Elias was complicit

in covering a stolen election? I did not say anything of that kind.

I am much more exacting with my thought process than that.

I do not believe Marc Elias is a "cover up" type person. I do not believe Kamala Harris is a "cover up" type person. Did the consultant class or Democratic strategists guide others away from recounts? Perhaps. Is that a cover up? I don't know - IMHO it is certainly ill advised.

[tritsofme]

169. Your post absolutely accuses Elias of being complicit

If he was “convinced” to stay away from questioning election results, despite knowing better, that would be clear participation in a cover up.

However the reality is that Elias has spoken out against these goofy conspiracy theories, because he knows they have no merit, it is no different from the Trumpers four years ago.

[yellow dahlia]

170. I never accused Marc Elias of being complicit in a cover up.

If he chose not to force action, that it is not the same thing as being complicit in a cover up. I think and speak in nuance - not absolutes. Apparently I think and communicate differently than you. I do not put words in peoples' mouths. I ask questions for clarification. I choose not to try and explain the difference to you.

I will continue to LOVE Marc Elias and continue to donate to Democracy Docket.

[questionseverything]

103. First we have to identify the problem

[unblock]

34. You don't have to get conspiratorial, they cheated in the usual and obvious ways

Without speculating on fudging the numbers somehow, they spent massively on propaganda, lied relentlessly, made up wild accusations, distracted and confused voters, and their funding included foreign money and so on.

Then they distorted the actual electorate by requiring voter id, selectively purging voter rolls, intimidating selected populations about the consequences of "voter fraud", shifted resources to create longer lines in select precincts, etc.

Then they also benefit from other undemocratic aspects of our system, notably the electoral college.

Bottom line is that instead of reflecting the will of the people, the results reflect the single-day opinion of those who were allowed to vote and for whom voting was not made overly difficult.

This is how we end up with an emerging dictator thatvthe majority strongly disapproves of. This doesn't happen in a functioning democracy, or if it does, such a leader is kicked out pronto.

Doesn't mean they actually flipped cast votes. I have no doubt they would if they could and felt it necessary, but there's no need to speculate.


My biggest reason for skepticism as to actual vote-flipping is that this clown crowd of incompetence has never demonstrated enough skill to pull such a thing off without it being ridiculously obvious. It's just not their m.o. they screw up all over the place and do their crimes obviously, the bully people into overlooking it.

[Doodley]

59. All true, in addition why would Musk spend nearly 300 million if they could win by cheating the system anyway. .

[questionseverything]

93. I do have a theory about musk buying those names of people that weren't registered to vote yet

Perhaps manipulating the results is easy by programming a pre determined result into each precincts machine but they realized they would need names to match the inflated numbers they spit out as results

So musk bought them

Just s theory

[Wiz Imp]

150. And if Musk could cheat to elect Trump, why didn't it work in the Wisconsin SC election?

Not to mention, wouldn't they have ensured a significant House majority, rather than a barely by the skin of their teeth majority they got?

[questionseverything]

86. We all pretty much agree that repubs cheat every chance they get

So I never understand why anyone would think they would draw the line at manipulating election results

[unblock]

141. There's certainly no sense of ethics at work there, to be sure.

Some 80% red precinct turning up with more trump voters than total voters registered in that district, sure, that I'll believe.

It's the big, carefully orchestrated, sophisticated plot that they pull off without getting caught that I find considerably less plausible. But if they had the means, sure, they would absolutely do it.

[SSJVegeta]

36. I mean. He won enough. For instance (anecdotal)

I have a buddy who has very strong ties to Dearborn, Michigan. This is a community that flipped strongly in favor of Trump after being reliably (around 95% maybe?) Democratic in every election before. He knew his community well, how they were feeling about Harris becaue of the Plaestinian and Lebanese conflict (which seemed intentionally started specifically to peel away that key voting groups from Harris). He told me for months before the election that unless Harris came out in favor of Palestine, she would lose Michigan. I didnt believe him, but once the election came around everything he said came together like clockwork in its logic. But the thing, Arab Americans weren't the only ones who were turned off because of the Israel issue, and I still believe to this day that one issue flipped the entire election.

[IbogaProject]

50. Yep I felt the fix was in as soon as Oct 7 happened

Then the word on the street was Gennocide Joe and those protests lost their funding immediately after the election.

[SSJVegeta]

53. Yup

[SCantiGOP]

39. Every one of these arguments

Are the same crap that MAGA threw out in contesting the 2020 election, and both arguments are equally foolish and indefensible.

[SSJVegeta]

54. Why is david pakman promoting this BS?

[Bluepinky]

41. smartelections.us, a nonpartisan organization, is also looking into election fraud via computerized voting systems.

Their data analysis suggests manipulation of vote counts involving computer systems in widespread use. They filed a lawsuit last year in Rockland County, NY, after the 2024 election, requesting a hand count of the votes. The lawsuit is still viable, but Repubs have created so many delays, it hasn’t been done.

Data analysis conducted by Smart elections also noted unusual vote counts after a certain threshold of votes were cast.

[MichMan]

45. If it is so widespread, why choose a few tiny precincts in a state that Harris won?

Instead of the swing states?

[Bluepinky]

49. Go to their website and watch the videos about their findings, very informative.

They have looked at data from multiple states and found anomalies. They filed the lawsuit in one small county to see if the hand count would match up with the electronic count, which they explain well in the video. Due to delays, the count has yet to be done.

[MichMan]

102. What happens if the hand count in Rockland County NY doesn't pan out to show anything nefarious?

Will that satisfy those who believe it was stolen from Harris?

[Bluepinky]

122. We won't know until it's completed. Let's see what it shows.

[Wiz Imp]

151. The Rockland County lawsuit is a joke.

There is zero chance of it being successful.

[questionseverything]

175. Why would you say that? All they want is to hand count the ballots

Are you saying Americans don’t have the right to oversee their own elections?

[Wiz Imp]

183. I've written about this many times already. I don't feel like repeating myself

or taking the time to find those prior posts. Instead, I'll just say to read this Substack which lays it out. I'm sure you won't be convinced, but I can't do anything about that. I fully expect this lawsuit to be dismissed just like the previous lawsuits these people filed as detailed in the Substack. In short, they have NO evidence to support their claims.

https://substack.com/home/post/p-167466926

[kentuck]

44. If there is anyone in the world that would try to steal an election...

It would be Donald Trump.

Laws and rules be damned!

[annielion]

47. SmartEleactions.us Sept 29, 8 pm ET. Election Verification Orientation.

Monday, Sept. 29, 8 pm ET. SmartElections.us will host a non-partisan, data-based Election Verification Orientation to train anyone to identify red flags, collect and verify election data in real time and will connect people to regional and state teams. See SmartElections.us website for more details.

[Bluepinky]

52. That's great! SmartElections.us is so important and informative.

Their videos are excellent in explaining what may be occurring in our voting systems.

[Celerity]

56. De rec. Sorry sis, but on this subject we most definitely part ways.

[questionseverything]

125. Just out of curiosity, do you acknowledge that volkswagons cheating software existed?

The software that preformed one way in testing and differently when driven

[Doodley]

57. I live in a swing state, Georgia. We received 12, yes 12, no exaggeration 12 flyers for Trump. None for Harris.

They were all on good quality card from Musk's PAC and all told lies, including that Democrats tried to kill Trump, and they put the fear of God into people and made Trump look like he was there for the people. Put that with outspending on social media spending. Republicans had a very simple message people could sum up in a few words. Democrats didn't. Yes, Republicans gaslit, but it worked. Musk spent nearly 300 million, getting swing states to go Trump. That is your answer to any anomalies.

[Bluepinky]

66. Both may be true.

Trump and the Repubs grossly outspent the Dems and put out erroneous information about their agenda AND there could also be fraud with regard to computerized voting systems.

From what I could see in my blue-leaning purple state of NH, there was overwhelming support and enthusiasm for Kamala, and subdued support for Trump. I believe elections are fair in my state, but I’m not sure if this is true everywhere.

You should watch some of the videos put out by SmartElections.us, they have unearthed vote counting anomalies. They seem very credible. You won’t hear any of this information on mainstream news.

[PufPuf23]

63. Doubt the 2024 POTUS election more over time.

Initially thought election loss was because:

1) I do not relate to how many Americans think and act

2) Democrats as too often self-destructed what should have been an easy win.

3) Cloud over Gaza and those that favor Trump to be more amenable to Netanyahu's led violence.

Now have doubts.

GOP, MSM and Netanyahu literally make me ill to where eroding hope, losing sleep and exacerbating chronic illness and aging that are my lot. Very sad too.

[returnee]

64. Saw that.

If it’s true and we don’t fix it, TSF will have been correct when he said he didn’t need votes anymore. I suspect that sometime just before the Black Journalist’s conference, he was informed that the fix was in, and after that he couldn’t help but talk about it, and being even more overtly racist.

[returnee]

70. Another angle:

Consider this: they thought the fix was in in 2020, thanks to Putin, but somehow it didn’t work. So Putin said, “Muddy the water with endless assertions of “stolen election” so we can fix the fix, and no one will dare cry foul after we steal it in 2024.” Then he shoots off his big mouth once the fix is fixed and he starts crowing about not needing votes because he can’ help himself. Fanciful, I know, but he is, as we know, very transparent, and every accusation is a confession. It fits in my mind, anyway. ymmv.

[yellow dahlia]

129. Yes. I have identified the same possible reverse psy-ops type technique.

a la Pootin style.

[tritsofme]

71. This election denial nonsense is actually a malicious attack on the character of Kamala Harris

If you are pushing these 2024 election conspiracy theories, you really only have two options when it comes to the reaction of Kamala Harris.

You are either arguing that she is well aware that the election was stolen from her (and us) and yet she has for whatever reason chosen not to say anything, making her complicit in a “cover-up”

Or you folks just think that Harris and her billion dollar plus campaign were too dumb to figure out the election was “stolen” from her even though internet conspiracy mongers “figured it out” almost immediately.

This is not only delusional nonsense, it is an attack on Harris and the entire Democratic Party.

[MichMan]

101. And the elected officials of the swing states

They were either complicit, or too incompetent to see what was happening right under their noses

[tritsofme]

104. Exactly. These attacks against Harris and Democrats really are pathetic.

[questionseverything]

111. It took months and dozens of workers to find this evidence

How would any candidate be expected to know it within hours of the election?

[tritsofme]

120. Yet within minutes of Harris' concession people were already pushing unfounded conspiracy theories.

Like the Trumpers in 2020, these election denialists will latch onto any outlandish or previously discredited claim.

If there was truly fraud, the Harris team would have caught it themselves. She has been all over tv the last week, and has expressed no skepticism about the validity of the election.

[questionseverything]

123. How would they catch it? Can they look into the computer guts

And find hidden malware?

Of course they couldn’t because it is illegal to examine the software/ hard drive that “ counts “ our votes

[tritsofme]

127. There was nothing to catch, except in the imagination of the folks so enthralled with these conspiracy theories.

The idea that the Harris team was completely unaware the election was stolen from under them, but these goofballs figured it out is laughable.

All their nonsense is out in the public now, and Harris has had ample opportunity in the last few days to express even mild skepticism, but has declined.

That’s because Kamala Harris is a member of the reality based community.

[kimbutgar]

76. I never thought he won fair and square and the muskrat rigged the election in his favor

By hacking the vote tabulators in Republican controlled swing states.

[tritsofme]

77. Sounds like the exact same sort of election denial conspiracy theories Trumpers pushed in 2020.

Not to mention, many of the swing states Trump won were controlled by Democrats.

Are they part of this conspiracy theory too?

[kimbutgar]

78. I agree with your comment and for a long time didn't want to think it was real but as time goes on I feel that way.

There’s nothing I can do but I think the orange turd is an illegal pos president.

[tritsofme]

79. I'm disappointed and angry with my neighbors for choosing this evil

Pretending it didn’t really happen doesn’t teach any lessons.

[questionseverything]

95. Which voting machine companies are owned by democrats?

[Wiz Imp]

153. Not just many, ALL of the swing states except for Georgia had Democratic Governors

And I believe they all had Democratic Secretaries of State as well.

[questionseverything]

88. Repubs don't have to control the state, they already control the vote counting and reporting machines

[Irish_Dem]

80. To think he won honestly is to defy logic, common sense, and facts.

We are supposed to believe that two ruthless psychopaths
who had everything to lose if Trump was not in the WH, did not cheat.

Trump facing prison, huge legal debts and fines.
The loss of his wealth, and the humiliation of prison.
Prison he could not handle.

Putin, facing the loss of Ukraine, the loss of his power and wealth as well.

These two men are the most brutal, ruthless psychopaths on the planet today.
We see every day what Trump is capable of.
We see his crimes on TV.
Rape trial, his treason, etc.
But he would not cheat to steal the WH?

Putin invades a country and gives his soldiers unlimited vodka and Viagra with
the orders to rape as many woman and children as possible. He has ordered
the wholesale slaughter of civilians, year after year.
But he would not cheat to get his pal in the WH.

But they played fair and square in the election that would save their necks,
their freedom, their wealth.

Sure.

Others have gone over the voting irregularities in great detail.
I am talking about the psychology profiles of the main players.

[malaise]

92. Ding ding

Truth will out eventually

[Irish_Dem]

97. If this were a criminal investigation it would be a slam dunk.

But everyone acts confused and perplexed.

I don't know if the truth will come out in our lifetime.
But we know what the truth is.

I also want to add the other suspects in the crime.
The billionaires with access to all the tech resources in the world.

For example: Elon Musk. We must add him to the list of suspects.
Another psychopath who would sell his own mother for a dollar.
Hates the US.
Was facing investigations for his legal/financial irregularities.
Another one facing jail time and loss of wealth.

And he wouldn't cheat to win the WH?

[yellow dahlia]

134. Always ask the question - who benefits?

[Irish_Dem]

136. Yep

[yellow dahlia]

132. Yup! and Yup!

[Coldwater]

81. Not enough data to convince me, but

did anyone else notice how unusually quiet trump was after his victory in November, as If he knew he stole the election and needed to keep his mouth shut out of fear of being caught.

[Wiz Imp]

154. I don't know where you were, but Trump wasn't remotely quiet immediately after the election

[madinmaryland]

82. I like mayonnaise, also. Much better than miracle whip.

[spanone]

144. K&R

[Roxi]

172. We know she actually won

I think most of us knew it was stolen on election night. The numbers made no sense, especially not after his lackluster “rallies” and all of the positive energy (edit: for Kamala) we were seeing from all over the country.

The question is, what can we do about it?

There’s no precedent, no recourse, no constitutional way to fix this situation. There are ways to remove him from office, of course, but all of those avenues simply plop the VP into his place. Obviously, that won’t fix the problem.

Where do we go from here?

[malaise]

174. I hope we know tge truth before I croak

but young folks will know we had serious doubts from day one.

[OLDMDDEM]

176. I never thought Trump won.

[GreenWave]

184. Taking into account repugs physically took election machines to run "forensics" on them

They did this in states where trump lost but thought he had won. This allows some tech gurus, say Elon Muskovites, to figure out how to rig them for future events.

If Trumpty Dumpty overwhelmingly lost ground on paper hand counts vs. machine count, then a case can be made.

I did notice on election night the trump butt kissing media were all too eager to claim his wins and make Harris supporters wait deep into the night.

Having said all this, it was still up to Harris to not concede if she felt fraud and she did not.

How did Trump win ALL the swing states? I don't know, but as a St. Louis Rams fan, I am still wondering how Belichick had his defense in perfect position for all of madman Martz's crazy BRAND NEW trick plays? Guy in the stands, so the NFL tore up the evidence for the good of the Patriots game and if this discovery and the election is proven correct repugs will say she conceded, blah, blah, blah, sore loser etc.