One of the Epstein documents is a victim's statement that when she was 13 and pregnant, Trump raped her

[Mr.WeRP]

Additionally, Trump was present when her uncle killed the newborn.

https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1ptxtjv/trump_raped_13_year_old_and_witnessed_murder_of/

Justice Dept. document: https://www.justice.gov/epstein/files/DataSet%208/EFTA00025010.pdf

Statement regarding Trump:

He participated regularly in paying money to force
me to (redacted) with him and he was present when my uncle murdered
my newborn child and disposed of the body in Lake Michigan.

[hlthe2b]

1. I am betting this is the girl that Gloria Allred was representing who became too terrified/intimidated to continue

her potential lawsuit against Trump prior to his first run for President. Her name was long left at "Jane Doe," but later identified as Katie Johnson.

https://people.com/politics/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-dismissed/

[Mr.WeRP]

2. Where are the pro-lifers now? This is what Trump has been projecting all along

When he uses the term “After-birth” abortions.

[Wiz Imp]

78. Not a chance.

This allegation took place on a yacht on Lake Michigan. Katie Johnson's allegations were she was raped 4 times at Jeffrey Epstein's residence in New York.

[Pisces]

3. This sounds a little to Enquirer to me.

[Mr.WeRP]

5. WTF? It's a victim statement given directly to the FBI

The person who made the statement could face criminal charges for lying to the FBI.

[appmanga]

12. The statute of limitations is five years...

...so this person could come forward to substantiate this claim without fear of prosecution for their statement to the FBI, although they may be open to charge of accessory after the fact to murder. That will probably be the mitigation to not coming forward. I have to admit I find this claim to be really outlandish, and I'm skeptical of it.

[gab13by13]

18. I think you should check again,

I do not believe the statute of limitation is 5 years for raping a minor.

[appmanga]

62. I think you should re-read what I wrote...

...which wasn't about the rape of a minor.

[Mr.WeRP]

20. You are assuming the victim is still alive and willing to cross Trump who controls the FBI/DoJ

Just ask all the innocent people being deported how that works.

[Trueblue Texan]

32. sure...they could come forward...

...at the risk of losing their own and likely their families' lives.

[Scrivener7]

16. We only have Pam Bondi's word for that.

[Hugin]

65. The subsequent investigation proving the claims were politically motivated would be themselves part of the so-called...

Epstein files.

Bondi should simply release those.

[Irish_Dem]

8. Are you saying that Trump is not capable of this kind of behavior?

That is it is too outlandish to consider?

Perhaps there is a bridge you might like to purchase?

[Bluetus]

14. It is very unlikely that Trump would intentionally

put himself at the site of a murder. That is not the mob boss way. You have other people take care of those details.

That makes the whole statement very suspect without more context and substance.

[Mr.WeRP]

21. You don't Trump then or you are dishonest.

Just ask Jamal Khashoggi

[Irish_Dem]

24. Articles states he WATCHED the murder. Entirely consistent with a mob boss.

Trump is a vicious brutal psychopath.
He would certainly endorse murder if it furthered his interests.

Keep in mind this is years ago and Trump is not always the brightest bulb
and had not perfected the mob boss skill set.

He has also been drug addicted and not aways thinking clearly.

Defending the indefensible is a hard sell.
A very hard sell.

[Bluetus]

35. I dont believe Trump would do that.

His whole life, he has made sure someone else takes the blame.

I would have to see some verified context before I believe that report.

Did the lady tell this same story to any friends at the time she gave birth? Did she she any. Medical people?

[cannabis_flower]

53. Sometimes things happen

And you aren’t expecting them to happen. Maybe he thought the uncle had something else in mind and happened to be there but didn’t report it. It would make him guilty of something

[Bluetus]

86. It could have happened that way

The complaint seems to imply this was something Trump planned and wanted to witness himself. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. IMHO, that would be very out of character for Trump. And if he is nothing else, his is consistent.

[Raven123]

55. By lady, are you referring to the 13 year old?

One thing I have learned is how many adolescents and young women were intimidated or threatened into silence. I would take issue with any suggestion that their assertions are false simply because they didn’t share the stories of their experiences contemporaneously with others.

[Bluetus]

88. Don't put wordds in my mouth.

I did not say she should be disbelieved. I said we should look for evidence that would provide context and independent verification. We should not act like a mob just because somebody says what we want to hear.

It is possible that the girl never told another person on the entire planet that she was pregnant. It is possible that she never told anybody she was being raped by such a prominent person as Trump. It is possible she never saw any medical professional.

It is also possible that some memories are synthesized, or at least some of the details, after bouncing around in a traumatized person's brain for decades.

We should at least ask for evidence before running off like a wild mob.

[Raven123]

101. You said it yourself in the title of your post "I don't believe Trump..."

You have decided the report is not accurate based upon your assessment of what Trump would or wouldn’t do. Therefore you don’t believe the report without further corroboration.

I honestly don’t know what happened, but I do not share your assumption about Trump, so I have a different perspective.

[Bluetus]

103. Again, don't put words in my mouth, please.

Making a comment about Trump's lift-long tendencies is not the same thing as saying the girl lied. Trump has spent his whole lifetime forcing others to clean up his messes. So it is out of character that he would choose to be on site when a baby is aborted and destroyed. I also said explicitly that it was possible but unlikely. So you are making false accusations about me. Please read more carefully. I am simply saying that we should expect the same evidence that we would demand if a person from "our team" were accused.

[Raven123]

108. "I don't believe Trump would do that" equals "I don't believe the story"

This is not a stretch.

Please read my replies on this. I have not accused you of calling any victim a liar, but you do not believe the story is true. Therefore you believe it is false.

“I would have to see some verified context before I believe that report.”

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

“Did the lady tell this same story to any friends at the time she gave birth? Did she she any. Medical people?”

How many victims have been doubted with this argument?

It is fair to ask the DU community to avoid drawing the verbal knives without fully processing these stories. It is asking a bit much of some of us to give Trump the benefit of the doubt based on what we think we know about him.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

60. Yeah, he makes other people take the blame for HIS CRIMES

You need verification from a 13 year old girl's friends and medical professionals, but you're all in on Piggy would never do anything like that!

[Bluetus]

90. I ask for the same kind of evidence that we would expect if Clinton, Obama or anyone else

was charged with the same things. Otherwise, we are no better than the MAGA people.

[paleotn]

75. I get your reservations but never say never

Out of character perhaps but still possible. Will be interesting to see where this goes.

[Bluetus]

97. Yes, it is possible. Very out of character.

That's all that I am saying.

Let's take a different item in the news. The MAGA people were all over Minnesota this week, with a claim that the Medicaid fraud in Minnesota is "up to $9 bn."

Do we accept that just because a person said it? I hope not. We look for evidence. And we apply a :reasonableness test" to the claim. It is reasonable that, in a state that processed $18Bn in Medicaid claims, HALF of them would be fraud?

The national rate is only 5%, and that includes simple errors as well as fraud, so the actual fraud rate is something lower than 5%. Is it likely that Minnesota would have a fraud rate 10x to 20x greater than the country on average?

It is possible. But certainly not very likely, given other things we know.

Let's not be like the MAGA mob.

[Scrivener7]

102. Totally possible. But also possible that they're trying to Dan Rather the whole story.

[paleotn]

104. Absolutely. I wouldn't put anything beyond those jackasses.

[Scrivener7]

105. I'm really afraid of this. If they are successful, that will dilute this whole case.

Last edited Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:32 PM - Edit history (1)

The FBI has already come out to say the handwritten letter from Epstein to Nassar describing how Cankles likes to grope "nubile girls" was false.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=20886710

But that is coming from Pam Bondi's FBI, so do we believe them?

I don't know whether to think the note is true or not.

They're going to cloud everything they can.

I hate this.

ETA: Forbes has written an article detailing the elements that show the Epstein to Nassar letter to be false. It seems pretty convincing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2025/12/23/major-epstein-files-release-doj-says-letter-to-larry-nassar-mentioning-trump-is-fake/

[MadameButterfly]

77. But he pretended to be someone else to talk about himself

to the press and thought no one would figure that out

[Johonny]

47. Trump is a penny pinching tyrant

He almost certainly would verify the child was dead so he didnt have to pay child support. That's totally consistent with Trump. He is self self self and cheap as hell.

[yellow dahlia]

76. He gets a prurient thrill from death and harm.

You can hear it in his voice when he talks about the death tolls in world events. You can hear it in his voice when he describes harm and repulsive injury suffered by others.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

59. Piggy is not a "mob boss"

Of course he could be involved in murder(s)! Torture and depravity often lead to death.

What chilled me was the warning on the ball gag included in the Epstein "sex toy" pics, that a person could vomit and suffocate, or otherwise asphyxiate; there is NO doubt in my mind these sick freaks could and would kill girls whose bodies they were defiling.

[yellow dahlia]

87. I have often said - he is capable of anything.

Anything!

Supposedly legit looking aspects of him are a veneer. Businessman? Moneyed? All irrelevant.

[Pisces]

29. I don't put anything past Trump, but trying to imagine him at the waters edge while an infant was drowned

sounds very hands on for him. He likes to order people to do his dirty work. He’s a pig and I can definitely hear him saying get rid of it.

[Bayard]

70. I believe this happened on a yacht

[Torchlight]

17. This sounds like typical-trump to me.

[Lulu KC]

28. Yes, an Enquirer kind of guy

He outdoes their headline intensity daily.

[littlemissmartypants]

40. Not believing victims aka victim blaming is so acceptable in our society...

That it's not surprising when it frequently appears as disbelief and skepticism.

[Scrivener7]

45. It's not victim blaming. If I were presented with a victim saying this, I would support

her wholeheartedly. For example, I believe the Katie Johnson story of another 13 year old girl is completely plausible.

What we are talking about here are papers that have been in Pam Bondi's hands, subject to Pam Bondi's manipulation and who knows what for the better part of a year.

[Kaleva]

72. Would you vote to convict if this was the only evidence presented?

[littlemissmartypants]

74. It wouldn't be the "only evidence presented" so to me...

That's a silly question.

[Kaleva]

80. There's other evidence you have that supports the claim?

Right now, with what you know, do you believe the woman’s statement to be true? Or would you want to see more corroborating evidence before deciding?

[littlemissmartypants]

84. The woman or the child?

[ColoringFool]

54. Like How They Printed That John Edwards Had A Baby With...

Rielle Hunter before any MSM would report it?

THAT Enquirer?

[regnaD kciN]

107. This is exactly the attitude Trump is counting on...

That, whenever anything truly lurid is found, people will decide that "this can't be true" and dismiss it out-of-hand, while anything illegal but not as lurid will be brushed-off as "not that bad."

[MorbidButterflyTat]

113. Nailed it.

[Betty Boom]

112. I had the same reaction

[kentuck]

4. Is this why he hates Mexicans?

And wants to deport all of them?

[eShirl]

6. no, that's because he's a stone cold racist

always has been

[littlemissmartypants]

33. Psychopaths like him don't care. ...

Literally. They aren't capable.

Characteristics of Psychopaths

1. Aggressive, callous, and cunning
2. Complete absence of conscience and empathy
3. Very adept at manipulating others
4. Willingness to engage in immoral, criminal conduct
5. Willingness to take what they want and do as they please, regardless of who is hurt or wronged
6. Deceptive ability to appear outwardly benevolent
7. Deceptive ability to behave in superficially charming ways to hide purely selfish motives
8. Willingness to use intimidation and violence to control others in order to satisfy their own needs
9. Willingness to intentionally violate the basic inherent human rights of others
10. Complete absence of any sense of guilt or remorse for the harm their actions have caused to others
11. Rationalization of their own immoral behavior
12. Will attempt to lay blame upon someone else for their own conduct
13. Denial, will deny their own wrongdoing outright
14. Utter contemptuousness toward the feelings and desires of their fellow beings
15. Pathological lying, will say anything without any concern for truth to advance their own hidden agendas
16. Ablity to feign [fake] normal human emotions and empathy
17. Distorted sense of the consequences of their actions
18. Total failure to accept any responsibility for their own socially irresponsible ways
19. Strong bellef that they will never be brought to justice for their criminal behavior

20 Signs of a Psychopath: Traits & Characteristics
...
[A few are]...
Violent Tendencies, Abuse, or Aggression...
Lack of Conscience...
Exploitation of Others for Personal Gain...
Sadistic Enjoyment of Pain & Suffering...
Unnecessary Cruelty or a Mean Streak...

https://www.choosingtherapy.com/signs-of-a-psychopath/

[yellow dahlia]

89. Yes. I hear the sadism in his voice constantly.

I can hear it when he describes people who have been killed, maimed, or harmed.

[jmbar2]

7. Horrifying story but

One thing that worries me is if someone might also insert bogus documents to attempt to cast doubt on the whole tranche of documents. From what I've read, Russia does that a lot - "Flood the Zone" tactic.

[Scrivener7]

11. That's how this reads to me. I think you're right. Somewhere there'll be proof he was somewhere else

at the exact time she alleges the baby was killed.

And then they'll have ammunition to discredit all the accounts.

[Mr.WeRP]

15. That's utter nonsense. The case ID on the document references a real case

It is dated 2020 and has DoJ watermark associated with it.

This was Trump’s FBI in 2020, and there is no doubt this was buried by his cronies.

[Scrivener7]

19. I hope you're right. But I guarantee that somewhere in these stories, and probably in the most

salacious and horrible one, there's a trap door that has been planted for us to fall through.

And it's likely in the "Oops! We forgot these tens of thousands of files. Here they are a little late. Sorry." drop of files.

[lame54]

41. That's dangerous though...

Like when the news gets a story wrong on the front page then prints a retraction on page 27

Only a small percentage will see the retraction

[Scrivener7]

46. You're right, it is, but tell that to Dan Rather. And that story was true.

[lame54]

48. Then the counter story should be out by now...

Because that's how fast that happened

[yellow dahlia]

94. We know their techniques, so of course we should watch out for the traps.

[Trueblue Texan]

34. Just because something is unspeakably horrible, doesn't mean TSF is incapable.

Haven't we learned anything yet? Who does he most admire in the world? Now talk to me about unspeakably horrible.

[yellow dahlia]

93. It's a good time to be cautious, rather than getting played.

[Mr.WeRP]

13. It's a dated document with a real case ID.

If this is fabricated, there is no benefit to Trump for fabricating it.

[littlemissmartypants]

36. Except that he loves to brag and as a psychopath sees little wrong in hurting others and breaking the law.

It's likely others would try harder to shield him than he would try for himself. A lack of a conscience does that to him.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

64. This corrupt "administration" is too stupid for that

Look at the clumsy stupid way they're trying to implicate Prez Clinton. And the common knowledge publicity pic with Michael Jackson? They're gonna intentionally create something like this to fake people out? Come on!

[yellow dahlia]

91. I have my antennae up as well, regarding flooding the zone with bogus info

to discredit all the info. Smoke and mirrors is always the game.

I have even been trying to find corroborating stories to match up to some of the docs.

For now, I think the Dems and others need to be careful not to get played.

[Disaffected]

9. WTAF???

"........he was present when my uncle murdered
my newborn child and disposed of the body in Lake Michigan."

What happened to that case let alone the rape charges?? Was anyone charged with infanticide? Why on earth would Trump be present for that??

It gets more mind-boggling every day......

[EdmondDantes_]

27. Taken as a whole this doesn't seem plausible

To be true, she was trafficked by Epstein with her family's knowledge and approval since they were fine with killing her baby and dumping it in a lake with one of the people who abused her.

It's not impossible because there are some absolutely horrible humans, but it feels like something made up. It's not something being spread by any major media that I've seen. So is there something that wasn't posted to social media that discredits the claim? It should have been investigated.

[Scrivener7]

30. The baby murder with onlookers has Satanic panic echoes.

[Trueblue Texan]

37. OMG. The media hasn't covered it?

Well then it must not be true.

[littlemissmartypants]

39. Not believing victims aka victim blaming is so acceptable in our society...

That it's not surprising when it frequently appears as disbelief and skepticism.

[EdmondDantes_]

57. Given we know a small number of rape claims are false, a small number should be disbelieved

This is a particularly outside of the norm claim. What percentage of rape cases would fall under these specific circumstances?

Why is nobody other than social media touching this? This would be front page news. The media is all over the flight records.

[littlemissmartypants]

68. Given that recent scholarly scientific research on propaganda reveals that...

The incidence of mis/disinformation not only exceeds fifty percent of all content that most are exposed to, and that such adversely affects our ability to think critically in all cases, it doesn't surprise me when the incapacity to separate fact from biased supposition exists.

[EdmondDantes_]

95. And I'm sure you think you're immune to that

Someone else up thread asked you if you would vote to convict Trump, the uncle and Epstein solely on this report from a then girl, now woman? You avoided answering on pedantic grounds so I'll ask it again specifically noting the correct term.

Or are you assuming it must be true because you hate Trump and come in with the belief that nothing is beyond him?

[MorbidButterflyTat]

67. It's infuriating

And sickening.

Maybe if it was a Democrat being accused it would be more believable.

[littlemissmartypants]

71. It is. Unfortunately, I don't think it would make a difference, MBT. ...

It appears that the smaller the mind and heart attached to the decisionmaker, the faster the rush to judgement occurs.

[Scrivener7]

99. Again, I'll repeat: if there's a victim, I'll believe her. However, so far there's only Pam

Bondi's goons dropping documents. I would be surprised if they DIDN'T put in some trap door in for us to fall through.

If a spokesperson or lawyer for this girl tells us she exists and this is her statement, I will readily believe her. I won't believe it only on the say so of Pam Bondi.

And I really don't believe my position in this warrants your insults of small mind and heart.

Have a lovely holiday.

[Irish_Dem]

10. Yes of course some of the victims became pregnant.

And yes some of the babies and some of the girls may have died at the hands of
the Epstein/Trump sex ring.

Wake up people.

What do you think happens when young girls are held captive and raped repeatedly?

[gab13by13]

23. Who among us hasn't raped a woman

in a department store change room?

People keep underestimating Krasnov.

[Irish_Dem]

42. And he carefully planned it ahead of time.

Cooked up a story to get the woman in a dressing room alone.
Then it was her word against his.

He used the fact he was famous to flatter and entice her.
She assumed someone so famous would not rape her.
E. J Carroll kicked herself for being so naive.

He did the same thing to Stormy.
Lured her to his hotel room with a fake story about going to dinner and a job.
She excused her self to go to the bathroom and he cornered her in the bedroom.
Guard at door.

Stormy kicked herself for being naive.

Keep in mind EJ and Stormy were mature woman, been around the block,
were not naive and gullible. And Trump easily manipulated and gamed them.

[Hugin]

44. Another rarely mentioned factor in both the Carroll and Daniels cases is that they were practiced...

Like he’s done rape many times before.

[Irish_Dem]

56. Of course this was not the first rape.

He had done it many times before.

One way you can tell, is that he made no mistakes.
He was confident and blasé about it.

First time criminals are either nervous or make mistakes.
Trump was neither in the rapes we know about.

[regnaD kciN]

49. "BoYs WiLl Be BoYs!"

[Pisces]

31. I don't doubt this for a minute, he would have got rid of the girl too. This reads false to me. If this young

brown girl witnessed Trump at the actual site I don’t believe she would be around to tell anyone. That is what I think he is capable of.

[Trueblue Texan]

38. who says she IS around? nt

[yellow dahlia]

96. Seriously!

[gab13by13]

22. There was another girl who Krasnov raped named Maria,

There were witnesses but Maria disappeared. The other girl was represented by Alred but she backed out because she got so many death threats.

[Melon]

25. This...when you look into it was withdrawn with major credibility issues

It was very hard to stand on based on facts. The chief backer that was pushing this was the producer for Jerry Springer as I remember. This case was a buyer beware.

[Scrivener7]

50. Can you tell us more about that? Who withdrew it? And who said it has credibility issues?

I am suspicious of it, and want to know more about what you're saying.

As I said above, the baby murder with onlookers is a very well-trodden right-wing Satanic panic trope.

[Walleye]

26. I'm willing to believe every awful thing they said he did. They spread so much slander about Biden.

[mahina]

43. I know he has killed many children through policy, USAID, snap cuts, healthcare etc

But I think it is very possible this last bit is not true for the reason stated upthread many times by others.

Sometimes bs is fed into the narrative to try and discredit our message, by telling us what we want to hear and using that.

Not that Im willing to click the links and follow the trail…at least not today. Too much work to do!

[Walleye]

61. I do think Trump is capable of this. I don't think anything is too brutal for him to do.

It probably isn’t actually true, but at this point who knows?

[mahina]

79. Yes. Also, diluting a true, compelling simple and objectively factual message

[karynnj]

106. They discredited the entire Russia story because

there was no proof of the outrageous golden showers story. It would have been better had Steele ignored that story.

[mahina]

110. Good example!

[PatSeg]

51. The post on Reddit has been removed

[Wiz Imp]

81. From what I can gather, that's because the source was not included on the reddit post

It definitely exists as a document on the DOJ website.

[PatSeg]

83. Yes, I was able to read it on the DOJ website

Thanks!

[Mr.WeRP]

92. It didn't quite meet the requirements of the law subreddit

I know the mods there and they are fair. They said the OP could repost it with some caveats.

It doesn’t change the reality that this was a victim statement taken by the FBI.

[ColoringFool]

52. This Goes A Long Way To Explain DJT's Insistence That ....

Abortions include murdering newborns.

He is always subconsciously compelled to confess.

But to read the DU Doubters is interesting, that they could think that....

A man who allowed the forcible kidnapping of Central American infants and children; a man who was gleeful over our sending men to the worst prison in our hemisphere; a man who groped and sexually assaulted women; a man who boasted about walking in on teen models in various states of undress; a man who was a best friend of a notorious child-sex-trafficker; a man whose own wife wrote that he brutally raped her: a man who admitted to wanting to "date" his one daughter, were they not related, and wondered aloud about the future bust size of his other, then infant daughter; that THIS man.....

Would have an actual line he wouldn't cross.

[Faux pas]

58. Thank you for finding that!

[demmiblue]

63. The post was removed by the moderator. n/t

[Wiz Imp]

82. See Post #81

[TBF]

66. I've been watching Meidas to get info about Epstein allegations -

he's an experienced attorney (and law professor), and I think will be very careful about what he reports. That said, it could be true. I know it seems far-fetched, but I wouldn't put it past Donald. After watching his behavior on Jan 6th, and the past year, I think he's truly capable of anything.

[yellow dahlia]

98. Yes - capable of anything.

[Scrivener7]

100. Yes. I would agree with that. It could be true. And it could not.

If they produce a spokesperson or lawyer who says the girl exists and who says this is the girl's statement, I'll readily believe it.

But I won't believe it only on the say so of Pam Bondi, whose reason for living is to discredit the fact that Cankles is implicated with Epstein.

[TBF]

111. Bondi hasn't proven herself to be credible, that's for sure! nt

[relayerbob]

69. Probably one of many

[Bayard]

73. If the girl was 13 and pregnant,

That means she was probably impregnated at 12--not even teenaged yet.

I believe this girl, and the legal report. trump is not above committing any atrocity. He probably got off on watching the birth and the murder.

[Mr.WeRP]

109. I am seriously shocked so many here would dismiss this

It boggles the mind.

Trump would not purposely leak something so damning about him, and that is the theory being used by several here.

Applying Occam’s Razor and it is far more likely that career DoJ professionals want to expose Trump for what he is.

[Dave Bowman]

85. Damn cruel psychotic waste of oxygen. 😡